Washington Votes Forum

Introduced in the House on February 7, 2008

Click here to view bill details.

What is the point, Rep O'Brien?

Rep. O'Brian and his gun-grabber pals apparently want to make ammunition so cumbersome to buy and costly to make that the effect will be to make handguns useless to ordinary citizens. Of course, criminals will get their ammunition from black-market sources or steal it.

I can cast and load my own. A reloader has all the skills to make and load your own. These people are going to tell me, I can't reload? Ohwell. Reloader Mike

Another gun grabber thinking happy thoughts. Last I heard this technology doesn't work anyway.

This is another gun law that will make it very difficult for law abiding citizens but won't deter criminals. This is a stupid law.

Do these idiots even research anything before coming up with new legislation? Haven't they seen that this has been though of before and viewed as unworkable? Oh, wait, thats the point! Make a law that is so impossible to comply with that the ammo makers just stop selling ammo in WA. A de-facto ban! Fine. In the same spirit, I propose a law that says all legislators must visit the planet Jupiter before being able to submit new bills.

This makes about as much sense as passing laws that make it illegal for criminals to own weapons. Again, the law-abiding citizen would be penalized while the criminals would just steal ammo or get it on the black market. We're paying these people's salaries?

This bill would create a black market in pistol ammunition; once again, the government would spend tons of money keeping track of honest citizens, while the violent criminals evade the whole thing. Dumb.

 One more piece of legislation that will have no impact on criminals. Considering it is a Seattle based company making this technology available, I would question the motive of the Sponsors of this bill (Reps. O'Brien, Williams, Flannigan, And Pedersen). Is it possible there might be campaign contributions involved?

This will just waste law enforcement resources on prosecutions of "possession of non-encoded ammunition". How about enforcing laws that are currently in place, in an effort to keep the offenders out of the public?

I realize we can't permanently lock-up offenders, but In my 16 years working in criminal justice I do notice a lack of charging offenders with existing "firearms enhancements" in order to get a guilty plea to a lesser offense.

 

 

Another example of a few misguided politicians trying to impose their will on us citizens; It’s up to us to put a stop to it. Call, write, and e-mail your congressmen tell them you do not support any legislating that hinders our freedoms, pistols included. Also, join the NRA and contact your friends.

If this gets to be law, it will be our fault.

 

I lived in Arizona up until septerber.   They tried this in AZ also and was defeated, currently there is not way to viably  track the ammo. This is a great piece of legislation to make sure that law abiding citizens can't protect themselves

Any updates on this very misguided legislation?

 The idea behind this law is to track persons involved in a murder.  If a person is defending themselves, there is no reason for them to hide what they did.  Murder by historical definition is killing someone without the other persons knowledge their life is in danger, allowing for the proper oppurtunity to equalize the 'playing field', or making right whatever wrong that has been committed.

Perhaps if Washington had a dispute resolution law that provided for the parties to come together and work out their differences, and if no resolution is found, then one party could challenge the other to a duel.  To be honest, cheating someone out of something they earned is no different then burning down their home.  Either instance can result in a loss.  Promises are often made by people to motivate a person to give it their all, and when that consideration exists and resulted in improve performance, taking it away after the benefit is obtained by the offering party, you have cheated them and effectually breached the contract.  It has a significant effect on that person, and perhaps if breach of trust or fair dealing could result in the decision maker losing their life, perhaps they'd think twice.

But I would suggest a law the requires that a seller of the bullets is required to keep records of the buyer (through state id or drivers license) but such information is unavailable to any agency without a warrant related to a specific case and must have a specific serial number of the bullet(s) being used. Failure to retain such information could result in damages awarded to victim &/or family.  Assuming the cost difference is minimal, I would add parts that restrict the importation of non-serialized ammunition illegal, and have a trade in program made available for people wishing to retain ammunition while inside the state.  (Perhaps by making a deal with the manufacturer to alter the old traded in ammunition to contain the serial numbers, which would be relatively inexpensive.

No person wishing to protect themselves could argue the intent, and with the seller being responsible for keeping the information (In house, perferrably with buyers signature) it ads the added protection from any possible abuses of the system.

 

I appreciate your well thought out response to my position regarding registration of pistol ammunition. That said I would like to help you see the lack of “common sense” applied to your position. (In my opinion).

 

It is possible to apprehend a criminal in a murderous act if let’s say “all the stars align in perfect order”. My guess is maybe one in ten would fall in to this category. Consider the added level of litigation added to this very costly, complicated, abuse riddled and in all likelihood will not work legislation. All one needs is the resources, motivation or the determination to perpetuate a misleading crime. As an example; our legislature once believed all that was needed to reduce the number of speed related offences, auto deaths and injuries was to equip our troopers with a radar device. We all know where that went. Would you agree that this adventure has turned in to nothing more than an additional way for the government to collect more tax revenue? What gets the greatest benefit, the taxability of the law or the improved level of safety?

 

It all looks good on paper, as does your well written letter but when logic is applied the reasoning falls apart.

 

Please do not be one of the “complex” types who believe that there's an answer to everything simply by putting pen to paper. The world (its peoples) operates on a much more “fluid” set of laws.

 

The idea behind the law is the flaw.  Most murders are comitted by illegal non registered weapons and or stolen ammo and guns. Under your law it would be illegal ot reload your own ammo? You are talking about information that might help in one percent of murder cases.  It will be impossible to keep illegal ammunition out of the state.   Your law would achieve only to raise prices of ammunition it would not help salve crime.

I believe we need to discover the “real” motivation behind this proposed legislation. The old rule defiantly applies here “follow the money”.

 If the ammunition cannot be distinguished from non serialized bullets, then it is unlikely for someone to be certain their ammunition couldn't be tracked. If there is a way to determine the last legal owner of the ammunition, it helps to narrow down the suspect list.  Usually a theif knows the people they rob.  So some video footage from a security camera can be shown to the last known owner of the ammo to get more detail on the shooter.

As I stated before, as long as the cost difference was minimal.  Obviously, raising the price of the ammunition to 2 times the current cost is a bit steep, and would create yet another black market, which is never too good.  It's amazing that before the 70's, most targets were politicians, and seems today they aren't given a second thought.  Is it an increase in intelligence, or widespread dumbification?  Peace loving is highly unlikely considering the U.S. has become a War Lord of the World.

 

 

The real question here is HOW will this program get paid for?  With the massive deficit the state is facing and budgets getting cut, especially school funding, the only way would be to "raise taxes / licensing fees".  The wording of the legislation says the DOL would be responsible for tracking this.  I don't see how that can happen in the fiscal reality that we are currently facing.

 

That is an easy one.  TAX ON THE PURCHASE of the ammunition of course.  That way the price would double to make make the coded ammunition and then we would get taxed to cover the cost of tracking the useless amount of information. That way it would cost us so much to purchase the ammo most would not afford it.  See this is just another way to keep guns out of law abiding citizens to make sure that criminals get the upper hand.

 The 2nd Amendment clearly states "...shall not be infringed"  Excuse me what part of that did the legislature not understand?  Maybe we should get everyone up there a dictionary so we can clearly define words that our learned forefathers used!   The laws are written to PROTECT the lawful, only a criminal will break the law; who exactly is this law being written for?  Who is this law PROTECTING?  Lets see if this legislature can balance the budget before they pass this law.  Oh an hey! Didn't these guys get us into this budget boondoggle?  Wake up people

And the purpose of this legislation would be what, exactly?  The effect, of course, would be to raise taxes and increase inconvenience for the lawful and responsible gun owners of this state.  As to reducing violent crime, the effect would be nil.  Just another attempt by the left to dismantle the Constitution, probably introduced by an idiot who has never read it and hasn't got a clue why the 2nd Amendment even exists.  Isn't it funny?  It exists to keep government from overreaching its power with actions such as this!

 Vote NO. Gun regulation is unconstitional and pointless. How many times, and how many different ways do we have to say that criminals, by definition, do not pay the slightest attention to gun laws (or any laws)? It's what makes them criminals!

The only effect laws like this have is to make government more oppressive for responsible, law-abiding citizens. Higher prices, fewer choices, and more risk of inadvertently violating laws is the only result. Do we really have a big problem tracking the source of bullets? Do you have any idea what happens to a bullet when it hits something? I don't know what technology you have in mind, but I don't think a serial number would be very readable. And the sheer volume of administrative overhead to keep track of all of them would be unbelieveable. It would certainly be effective at putting firearms out of the budget for most citizens. That's a pretty damn sneaky way of infringing our right to keep and bear arms. But we're onto you. You do know the real reason for the second amendment, don't you? (Hint: read Thomas Jefferson)

Evidently the state doesn't understand the positive effect gun ownership by responsible, law abiding citizens is for keeping the peace. When seconds count, the police can be there in minutes. A weapon for self defense is like a fire extinguisher. You hope you never have to use it, but it is invaluable for keeping the situation under control while waiting for help to arrive.

Please read history, no - not revisionist history but the facts.  Confiscation of legal, personal firearms and ammunition is a first step used by dictators in their process of take over!  The election of Obama has emboldened the anti-Second Amendment zealots.  Rahm Emanuel, Joe Biden and AG designee Eric Holden are all proponents of disarming the citizenry in violation of the Constitution and the intentions of our Founding Fathers.  Vote NO to any bill or resolution which is intended to undo any provisions of our Constitutional Rights and Freedoms!

The Era of Obama will be a test of true Americans against a leader that will try to take away many of your rights.  This is more than an issue on guns but personal liberties on all fronts.

 

 

Barack Obama direct quote:

It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

 

 

 All of our politicians swore to uphold, preserve, and protect the constitution. We need to hold them to that oath. Don't quite know how to do that yet, I am sure someone could figure out how to do it.

Everyone is saying vote no... We don't get to vote on these issues, those idiots in Olympia do. What we need is a law that simply states, that any new laws or taxes need to come before the people of the state. This would include 'Fee's' because they would stop doing taxes, and everything would be a fee....

This would cost more to set up, and track, for how long? The records would need to be maintained for at least 50 years or more to be sure that the ammunition that was sold 50 years ago was used. What will that cost? Billions, in equipment, people, and reduced revenue to the state.

Tritium,

Very well written, but with flaws.

First of which, is that a criminal will actually go buy their ammunition at a local store. They won't. They will go out and smuggle it in from another state, make their own ammunition, or destroy the markings. They aren't going to obey the law, because they do not care about the laws.

Second, the idea is not to track a person involved with a murder, it is to provide a way to trace the evidence, and tie it to a suspect.  This will result in the harrassment of the law abiding citizens. All it would take is for the criminal to pick up brass, make a projectile out of wood, and the person who purchased the ammo is now on the hook.

This leads to the reloaders. This would make reloading for your pistols illegal. This would affect the law abiding citizens of this state. Not to mention, all those who shoot competitive pistol matches.

Not only would it increase the cost of ammo for the public, but it would also do the same for the law enforcement community, who are currently limiting their ammo used for practice. (Personally, if I had a cop shooting in my area, I would want him to have as much trigger time as possible, so he can minimize the collateral damage caused from flying bullets)

Finally, it comes down to legislature that will do little or nothing but will feel good for the person who got it passed. The problem is the perpetrator of the crime, not the law abiding citizens. The law only effects law abiding citizens. Therefore, it is fundamentally flawed.

 

 

 

Armed robbers, burglars, murderers, gang bangers, drug dealers and such do NOT buy guns at a gun dealer where they can be tracked. They steal or buy stolen guns to commit their crimes. The D.C. sniper is a prime example. He did not buy his gun he stole it. And while the ammunition he used would not be serialized under this legislation, criminals such as this will not buy their ammunition from a store when that ammunition can be tracked. Criminals may be stupid, but they're not that stupid. This bill will establish more bureaucracy and government intrusion into our personal lives while doing very little if anything to prevent actual criminals from committing crimes. When guns and ammunition are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. I can't believe we have elected officials so ignorant they believe this will limit access to ammunition by criminals. Drugs such as marijuana and cocaine have been against the law for many decades yet they still find their way to the streets even into our schools. Why don't our law makers focus on law making that will make a difference. We need to provide better schools, roads and food and shelter to the less fortunate. Maybe if we focus on education, rehabilitation and job training for our homeless population we wouldn't have quite so many people draining the welfare system or on unemployment. I'm tired of my tax dollars being wasted on frivolous legislation and wasteful government spending. Maybe we should take the money we we're paying the authors of this bill and hire more cops. It would be more effective.

 

 

With all due respect Tritium...You are an idiot. You could never accomplish a trade in program because of the ability to reload ammunition and the liability issues this would create for the ammunition manufacturers. Even if you could "trade in" your old ammunition they could not add serial numbers to it with out extracting the bullet, dumping out the powder, and removing the primer for safety. Hardly inexpensive. Second, how could you expect any dealer to maintain records in house. Do you have any idea how many thousands of people buy ammunition every day? Let me find a dealer that has the room to store this information ( hard drive storage is not sufficient as it is corruptible) and then let me find someone that could enforce this practice without having access to the information in the files. Frankly, I think you need an injection of common sense and a reality check.

 Basically, that is the point I was making.  If they really believe it would make a difference and and it could be done without adding the burden, then I wouldn't really care one way or the other.  I don't go through a lot of ammunition each day. 

And of course, as you implied, it would be next to impossible for the legislature to accomplish such a thing without there being an added cost, which would mean they shouldn't waste any additional time on the Bill. Many times, when legislatures wish to pass laws like this, they go out and buy stock in the company.

buying stock on a proposed law knowing it will pass is insider trading and highly illegal.  This law would have a detrimental effect to the economy.  Many of us would not be able to reload our own cartriges, making reloading a crime. Reloading is a multi million dollar a year business.

The problem with this bill all together is a violation of privacy. They (Government) say they want to track bad guys. Guess what? Bad guys don't go into the store and buy ammo especially if they think it can be tracked to them. They will do what they do best; break the law and take it from some one else.

Second, the bad guys are fewer in number by far. The government is not afraid of them. They are afraid of the average citizen (who is in great numbers) who will not put up with a tyrannical government imposing its will on the people. The government uses fear tactics and a socialistic mentality to state "It’s what is best for the people." Guess what, Stalin had the same sentiment about the Russians. Do you remember Communism?

I am not a radical nor some crazed citizen. The government has one fear; YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS! It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see this is just the beginning of an avalanche of measures that the government will impose to slowly erode away your rights as a citizen. If you cannot use your guns to protect yourself from foreign and DOMESTIC enemies, what is the point?

God Bless the U.S.A.!

 Umm OK Lets see whats going on here with Mr. O'brien. This the second time I have been compeled to write about pending legilation from this man. If you want gun control let THE PEOPLE VOTE. PERIOD end of conversation. To limit or control  ammunition  that is part of the firearm is a back door way of gun control. From what I can see online it comes from private patent holding companies. This O'brien charater seems to like these lobbyists. Must be good re election fund raiser.

 Is this Bill dead? I am very concerned as it sounded very bad to me. There is a run on guns ammo and reloading supplies here where I live in Eastern Washington. I am about to write a letter to my representatives and would like to know before I post it. 

This bill is still alive, get writing!

  There pushing there luck!! I don't know about anyone else,but my walls are closing in.